Two Weapon Fighting in Pathfinder

Two-Weapon Fighting vs. a greatsword

In this, it's argued that two-weapon fighting is a terrible choice for a ranger because fighting with paired short swords yields the same max damage as an identical ranger without the two weapon fighting feats holding a greatsword. This has a couple flaws with it. First, pair short swords are not nearly as good as longsword/short sword. Second, it's not max damage, but expected damage that matters.

I did some math on a few builds. I assumed the two-weapon fighting ranger takes two-weapon fighting at first level and double slice at second. At 6th level, he takes greater two-weapon fighting. He's using a longsword and a short sword. The greatsword wielder has no feats at all, as far as we're concerned. Both characters have 18 strength. Here's the expected damage for each against ACs from 10 to 30. The number at the beginning of each set is the mean across all the armor classes.

Two handed, level 1: 3.8955
10 *************************************************** 10.22
11 *********************************************** 9.5
12 ******************************************* 8.78
13 **************************************** 8.06
14 ************************************ 7.34
15 ********************************* 6.62
16 ***************************** 5.9
17 ************************* 5.18
18 ********************** 4.46
19 ****************** 3.74
20 *************** 3.02
21 *********** 2.3
22 ******* 1.58
23 **** 0.86
24  0.14
25  0.035
26  0.035
27  0.035
28  0.035
29  0.035
30  0.035
Two weapon, level 1: 3.162
10 *********************************************** 9.52
11 ******************************************* 8.74
12 *************************************** 7.96
13 *********************************** 7.18
14 ******************************** 6.4
15 **************************** 5.62
16 ************************ 4.84
17 ******************** 4.06
18 **************** 3.28
19 ************ 2.5
20 ******** 1.72
21 **** 0.94
22  0.16
23  0.04
24  0.04
25  0.04
26  0.04
27  0.04
28  0.04
29  0.04
30  0.04
Two handed, level 2: 4.44075
10 ****************************************************** 10.94
11 *************************************************** 10.22
12 *********************************************** 9.5
13 ******************************************* 8.78
14 **************************************** 8.06
15 ************************************ 7.34
16 ********************************* 6.62
17 ***************************** 5.9
18 ************************* 5.18
19 ********************** 4.46
20 ****************** 3.74
21 *************** 3.02
22 *********** 2.3
23 ******* 1.58
24 **** 0.86
25  0.14
26  0.035
27  0.035
28  0.035
29  0.035
30  0.035
Two weapon, level 2: 4.13
10 ********************************************************** 11.6
11 ***************************************************** 10.72
12 ************************************************* 9.84
13 ******************************************** 8.96
14 **************************************** 8.08
15 ************************************ 7.2
16 ******************************* 6.32
17 *************************** 5.44
18 ********************** 4.56
19 ****************** 3.68
20 ************** 2.8
21 ********* 1.92
22 ***** 1.04
23  0.16
24  0.04
25  0.04
26  0.04
27  0.04
28  0.04
29  0.04
30  0.04
Two handed, level 3: 5.022
10 ********************************************************** 11.66
11 ****************************************************** 10.94
12 *************************************************** 10.22
13 *********************************************** 9.5
14 ******************************************* 8.78
15 **************************************** 8.06
16 ************************************ 7.34
17 ********************************* 6.62
18 ***************************** 5.9
19 ************************* 5.18
20 ********************** 4.46
21 ****************** 3.74
22 *************** 3.02
23 *********** 2.3
24 ******* 1.58
25 **** 0.86
26  0.14
27  0.035
28  0.035
29  0.035
30  0.035
Two weapon, level 3: 4.752
10 ************************************************************** 12.48
11 ********************************************************** 11.6
12 ***************************************************** 10.72
13 ************************************************* 9.84
14 ******************************************** 8.96
15 **************************************** 8.08
16 ************************************ 7.2
17 ******************************* 6.32
18 *************************** 5.44
19 ********************** 4.56
20 ****************** 3.68
21 ************** 2.8
22 ********* 1.92
23 ***** 1.04
24  0.16
25  0.04
26  0.04
27  0.04
28  0.04
29  0.04
30  0.04
Two handed, level 4: 5.63925
10 ************************************************************* 12.38
11 ********************************************************** 11.66
12 ****************************************************** 10.94
13 *************************************************** 10.22
14 *********************************************** 9.5
15 ******************************************* 8.78
16 **************************************** 8.06
17 ************************************ 7.34
18 ********************************* 6.62
19 ***************************** 5.9
20 ************************* 5.18
21 ********************** 4.46
22 ****************** 3.74
23 *************** 3.02
24 *********** 2.3
25 ******* 1.58
26 **** 0.86
27  0.14
28  0.035
29  0.035
30  0.035
Two weapon, level 4: 5.418
10 ****************************************************************** 13.36
11 ************************************************************** 12.48
12 ********************************************************** 11.6
13 ***************************************************** 10.72
14 ************************************************* 9.84
15 ******************************************** 8.96
16 **************************************** 8.08
17 ************************************ 7.2
18 ******************************* 6.32
19 *************************** 5.44
20 ********************** 4.56
21 ****************** 3.68
22 ************** 2.8
23 ********* 1.92
24 ***** 1.04
25  0.16
26  0.04
27  0.04
28  0.04
29  0.04
30  0.04
Two handed, level 5: 6.2565
10 ************************************************************* 12.38
11 ************************************************************* 12.38
12 ********************************************************** 11.66
13 ****************************************************** 10.94
14 *************************************************** 10.22
15 *********************************************** 9.5
16 ******************************************* 8.78
17 **************************************** 8.06
18 ************************************ 7.34
19 ********************************* 6.62
20 ***************************** 5.9
21 ************************* 5.18
22 ********************** 4.46
23 ****************** 3.74
24 *************** 3.02
25 *********** 2.3
26 ******* 1.58
27 **** 0.86
28  0.14
29  0.035
30  0.035
Two weapon, level 5: 6.128
10 *********************************************************************** 14.24
11 ****************************************************************** 13.36
12 ************************************************************** 12.48
13 ********************************************************** 11.6
14 ***************************************************** 10.72
15 ************************************************* 9.84
16 ******************************************** 8.96
17 **************************************** 8.08
18 ************************************ 7.2
19 ******************************* 6.32
20 *************************** 5.44
21 ********************** 4.56
22 ****************** 3.68
23 ************** 2.8
24 ********* 1.92
25 ***** 1.04
26  0.16
27  0.04
28  0.04
29  0.04
30  0.04
Two handed, level 6: 9.30925
10 ************************************************************************************************* 19.5
11 ********************************************************************************************** 18.88
12 ******************************************************************************************* 18.26
13 ************************************************************************************* 17.02
14 ****************************************************************************** 15.78
15 ************************************************************************ 14.54
16 ****************************************************************** 13.3
17 ************************************************************ 12.06
18 ****************************************************** 10.82
19 *********************************************** 9.58
20 ***************************************** 8.34
21 *********************************** 7.1
22 ***************************** 5.86
23 *********************** 4.62
24 **************** 3.38
25 ************* 2.655
26 ********** 2.035
27 ******* 1.415
28 *** 0.795
29  0.175
30  0.07
Two weapon, level 6: 10.434
10 ********************************************************************************************************************************* 25.84
11 ************************************************************************************************************************ 24.08
12 *************************************************************************************************************** 22.32
13 ****************************************************************************************************** 20.56
14 ********************************************************************************************** 18.8
15 ************************************************************************************* 17.04
16 **************************************************************************** 15.28
17 ******************************************************************* 13.52
18 ********************************************************** 11.76
19 ************************************************** 10.0
20 ***************************************** 8.24000000001
21 ******************************** 6.48
22 *********************** 4.72
23 ****************** 3.72
24 ************** 2.84
25 ********* 1.96
26 ***** 1.08
27 * 0.2
28  0.08
29  0.08
30  0.08
Two handed, level 7: 10.31175
10 **************************************************************************************************** 20.12
11 ************************************************************************************************* 19.5
12 ********************************************************************************************** 18.88
13 ******************************************************************************************* 18.26
14 ************************************************************************************* 17.02
15 ****************************************************************************** 15.78
16 ************************************************************************ 14.54
17 ****************************************************************** 13.3
18 ************************************************************ 12.06
19 ****************************************************** 10.82
20 *********************************************** 9.58
21 ***************************************** 8.34
22 *********************************** 7.1
23 ***************************** 5.86
24 *********************** 4.62
25 **************** 3.38
26 ************* 2.655
27 ********** 2.035
28 ******* 1.415
29 *** 0.795
30  0.175
Two weapon, level 7: 11.766
10 ************************************************************************************************************************************* 26.72
11 ********************************************************************************************************************************* 25.84
12 ************************************************************************************************************************ 24.08
13 *************************************************************************************************************** 22.32
14 ****************************************************************************************************** 20.56
15 ********************************************************************************************** 18.8
16 ************************************************************************************* 17.04
17 **************************************************************************** 15.28
18 ******************************************************************* 13.52
19 ********************************************************** 11.76
20 ************************************************** 10.0
21 ***************************************** 8.24000000001
22 ******************************** 6.48
23 *********************** 4.72
24 ****************** 3.72
25 ************** 2.84
26 ********* 1.96
27 ***** 1.08
28 * 0.2
29  0.08
30  0.08
Two handed, level 8: 11.34
10 ******************************************************************************************************* 20.74
11 **************************************************************************************************** 20.12
12 ************************************************************************************************* 19.5
13 ********************************************************************************************** 18.88
14 ******************************************************************************************* 18.26
15 ************************************************************************************* 17.02
16 ****************************************************************************** 15.78
17 ************************************************************************ 14.54
18 ****************************************************************** 13.3
19 ************************************************************ 12.06
20 ****************************************************** 10.82
21 *********************************************** 9.58
22 ***************************************** 8.34
23 *********************************** 7.1
24 ***************************** 5.86
25 *********************** 4.62
26 **************** 3.38
27 ************* 2.655
28 ********** 2.035
29 ******* 1.415
30 *** 0.795
Two weapon, level 8: 13.142
10 ***************************************************************************************************************************************** 27.6
11 ************************************************************************************************************************************* 26.72
12 ********************************************************************************************************************************* 25.84
13 ************************************************************************************************************************ 24.08
14 *************************************************************************************************************** 22.32
15 ****************************************************************************************************** 20.56
16 ********************************************************************************************** 18.8
17 ************************************************************************************* 17.04
18 **************************************************************************** 15.28
19 ******************************************************************* 13.52
20 ********************************************************** 11.76
21 ************************************************** 10.0
22 ***************************************** 8.24000000001
23 ******************************** 6.48
24 *********************** 4.72
25 ****************** 3.72
26 ************** 2.84
27 ********* 1.96
28 ***** 1.08
29 * 0.2
30  0.08
  

As you can see, first level still gives the advantage to the greatsword wielder. However, by level 2 (and the third feat) the two-weapon fighter has passed the greatsword, if only by a little. Then the advantage goes back to greatsword for very high AC foes. The greatsword holds that slight advantage until level 6, at which improved TWF gives the two-weapon fighter a significant advantage below 24 AC and a slight overall advantage. I only went up to level 8, since much past that and a no-feats greatsword wielder is at a pretty huge disadvantage. Level 10 opens up greater TWF and two-weapon rend, which cinch things.

Here are the numbers for paired short swords, in case you're interested. It's much worse, but not as bad as the guide above would have you think.

Two handed, level 1: 3.8955
10 *************************************************** 10.22
11 *********************************************** 9.5
12 ******************************************* 8.78
13 **************************************** 8.06
14 ************************************ 7.34
15 ********************************* 6.62
16 ***************************** 5.9
17 ************************* 5.18
18 ********************** 4.46
19 ****************** 3.74
20 *************** 3.02
21 *********** 2.3
22 ******* 1.58
23 **** 0.86
24  0.14
25  0.035
26  0.035
27  0.035
28  0.035
29  0.035
30  0.035
Two weapon, level 1: 2.913
10 ******************************************* 8.78
11 **************************************** 8.06
12 ************************************ 7.34
13 ********************************* 6.62
14 ***************************** 5.9
15 ************************* 5.18
16 ********************** 4.46
17 ****************** 3.74
18 *************** 3.02
19 *********** 2.3
20 ******* 1.58
21 **** 0.86
22  0.14
23  0.035
24  0.035
25  0.035
26  0.035
27  0.035
28  0.035
29  0.035
30  0.035
Two handed, level 2: 4.44075
10 ****************************************************** 10.94
11 *************************************************** 10.22
12 *********************************************** 9.5
13 ******************************************* 8.78
14 **************************************** 8.06
15 ************************************ 7.34
16 ********************************* 6.62
17 ***************************** 5.9
18 ************************* 5.18
19 ********************** 4.46
20 ****************** 3.74
21 *************** 3.02
22 *********** 2.3
23 ******* 1.58
24 **** 0.86
25  0.14
26  0.035
27  0.035
28  0.035
29  0.035
30  0.035
Two weapon, level 2: 3.84125
10 ****************************************************** 10.8
11 ************************************************* 9.98
12 ********************************************* 9.16
13 ***************************************** 8.34
14 ************************************* 7.52
15 ********************************* 6.7
16 ***************************** 5.88
17 ************************* 5.06
18 ********************* 4.24
19 ***************** 3.42
20 ************* 2.6
21 ******** 1.78
22 **** 0.96
23  0.14
24  0.035
25  0.035
26  0.035
27  0.035
28  0.035
29  0.035
30  0.035
Two handed, level 3: 5.022
10 ********************************************************** 11.66
11 ****************************************************** 10.94
12 *************************************************** 10.22
13 *********************************************** 9.5
14 ******************************************* 8.78
15 **************************************** 8.06
16 ************************************ 7.34
17 ********************************* 6.62
18 ***************************** 5.9
19 ************************* 5.18
20 ********************** 4.46
21 ****************** 3.74
22 *************** 3.02
23 *********** 2.3
24 ******* 1.58
25 **** 0.86
26  0.14
27  0.035
28  0.035
29  0.035
30  0.035
Two weapon, level 3: 4.4205
10 ********************************************************** 11.62
11 ****************************************************** 10.8
12 ************************************************* 9.98
13 ********************************************* 9.16
14 ***************************************** 8.34
15 ************************************* 7.52
16 ********************************* 6.7
17 ***************************** 5.88
18 ************************* 5.06
19 ********************* 4.24
20 ***************** 3.42
21 ************* 2.6
22 ******** 1.78
23 **** 0.96
24  0.14
25  0.035
26  0.035
27  0.035
28  0.035
29  0.035
30  0.035
Two handed, level 4: 5.63925
10 ************************************************************* 12.38
11 ********************************************************** 11.66
12 ****************************************************** 10.94
13 *************************************************** 10.22
14 *********************************************** 9.5
15 ******************************************* 8.78
16 **************************************** 8.06
17 ************************************ 7.34
18 ********************************* 6.62
19 ***************************** 5.9
20 ************************* 5.18
21 ********************** 4.46
22 ****************** 3.74
23 *************** 3.02
24 *********** 2.3
25 ******* 1.58
26 **** 0.86
27  0.14
28  0.035
29  0.035
30  0.035
Two weapon, level 4: 5.04075
10 ************************************************************** 12.44
11 ********************************************************** 11.62
12 ****************************************************** 10.8
13 ************************************************* 9.98
14 ********************************************* 9.16
15 ***************************************** 8.34
16 ************************************* 7.52
17 ********************************* 6.7
18 ***************************** 5.88
19 ************************* 5.06
20 ********************* 4.24
21 ***************** 3.42
22 ************* 2.6
23 ******** 1.78
24 **** 0.96
25  0.14
26  0.035
27  0.035
28  0.035
29  0.035
30  0.035
Two handed, level 5: 6.2565
10 ************************************************************* 12.38
11 ************************************************************* 12.38
12 ********************************************************** 11.66
13 ****************************************************** 10.94
14 *************************************************** 10.22
15 *********************************************** 9.5
16 ******************************************* 8.78
17 **************************************** 8.06
18 ************************************ 7.34
19 ********************************* 6.62
20 ***************************** 5.9
21 ************************* 5.18
22 ********************** 4.46
23 ****************** 3.74
24 *************** 3.02
25 *********** 2.3
26 ******* 1.58
27 **** 0.86
28  0.14
29  0.035
30  0.035
Two weapon, level 5: 5.702
10 ****************************************************************** 13.26
11 ************************************************************** 12.44
12 ********************************************************** 11.62
13 ****************************************************** 10.8
14 ************************************************* 9.98
15 ********************************************* 9.16
16 ***************************************** 8.34
17 ************************************* 7.52
18 ********************************* 6.7
19 ***************************** 5.88
20 ************************* 5.06
21 ********************* 4.24
22 ***************** 3.42
23 ************* 2.6
24 ******** 1.78
25 **** 0.96
26  0.14
27  0.035
28  0.035
29  0.035
30  0.035
Two handed, level 6: 9.30925
10 ************************************************************************************************* 19.5
11 ********************************************************************************************** 18.88
12 ******************************************************************************************* 18.26
13 ************************************************************************************* 17.02
14 ****************************************************************************** 15.78
15 ************************************************************************ 14.54
16 ****************************************************************** 13.3
17 ************************************************************ 12.06
18 ****************************************************** 10.82
19 *********************************************** 9.58
20 ***************************************** 8.34
21 *********************************** 7.1
22 ***************************** 5.86
23 *********************** 4.62
24 **************** 3.38
25 ************* 2.655
26 ********** 2.035
27 ******* 1.415
28 *** 0.795
29  0.175
30  0.07
Two weapon, level 6: 9.70725
10 ************************************************************************************************************************ 24.06
11 **************************************************************************************************************** 22.42
12 ******************************************************************************************************* 20.78
13 *********************************************************************************************** 19.14
14 *************************************************************************************** 17.5
15 ******************************************************************************* 15.86
16 *********************************************************************** 14.22
17 ************************************************************** 12.58
18 ****************************************************** 10.94
19 ********************************************** 9.3
20 ************************************** 7.66
21 ****************************** 6.02
22 ********************* 4.38
23 ***************** 3.455
24 ************* 2.635
25 ********* 1.815
26 **** 0.994999999999
27  0.175
28  0.07
29  0.07
30  0.07
Two handed, level 7: 10.31175
10 **************************************************************************************************** 20.12
11 ************************************************************************************************* 19.5
12 ********************************************************************************************** 18.88
13 ******************************************************************************************* 18.26
14 ************************************************************************************* 17.02
15 ****************************************************************************** 15.78
16 ************************************************************************ 14.54
17 ****************************************************************** 13.3
18 ************************************************************ 12.06
19 ****************************************************** 10.82
20 *********************************************** 9.58
21 ***************************************** 8.34
22 *********************************** 7.1
23 ***************************** 5.86
24 *********************** 4.62
25 **************** 3.38
26 ************* 2.655
27 ********** 2.035
28 ******* 1.415
29 *** 0.795
30  0.175
Two weapon, level 7: 10.94775
10 **************************************************************************************************************************** 24.88
11 ************************************************************************************************************************ 24.06
12 **************************************************************************************************************** 22.42
13 ******************************************************************************************************* 20.78
14 *********************************************************************************************** 19.14
15 *************************************************************************************** 17.5
16 ******************************************************************************* 15.86
17 *********************************************************************** 14.22
18 ************************************************************** 12.58
19 ****************************************************** 10.94
20 ********************************************** 9.3
21 ************************************** 7.66
22 ****************************** 6.02
23 ********************* 4.38
24 ***************** 3.455
25 ************* 2.635
26 ********* 1.815
27 **** 0.994999999999
28  0.175
29  0.07
30  0.07
Two handed, level 8: 11.34
10 ******************************************************************************************************* 20.74
11 **************************************************************************************************** 20.12
12 ************************************************************************************************* 19.5
13 ********************************************************************************************** 18.88
14 ******************************************************************************************* 18.26
15 ************************************************************************************* 17.02
16 ****************************************************************************** 15.78
17 ************************************************************************ 14.54
18 ****************************************************************** 13.3
19 ************************************************************ 12.06
20 ****************************************************** 10.82
21 *********************************************** 9.58
22 ***************************************** 8.34
23 *********************************** 7.1
24 ***************************** 5.86
25 *********************** 4.62
26 **************** 3.38
27 ************* 2.655
28 ********** 2.035
29 ******* 1.415
30 *** 0.795
Two weapon, level 8: 12.22925
10 ******************************************************************************************************************************** 25.7
11 **************************************************************************************************************************** 24.88
12 ************************************************************************************************************************ 24.06
13 **************************************************************************************************************** 22.42
14 ******************************************************************************************************* 20.78
15 *********************************************************************************************** 19.14
16 *************************************************************************************** 17.5
17 ******************************************************************************* 15.86
18 *********************************************************************** 14.22
19 ************************************************************** 12.58
20 ****************************************************** 10.94
21 ********************************************** 9.3
22 ************************************** 7.66
23 ****************************** 6.02
24 ********************* 4.38
25 ***************** 3.455
26 ************* 2.635
27 ********* 1.815
28 **** 0.994999999999
29  0.175
30  0.07